Future Arx Speakers Discussion

[Jon Lane]

I think Jon's concern is quite valid regarding sub-woofers. Building one that can differentiate itself from the rest of the pack will be difficult. Sub-woofers don't image, there is no critical crossover tuning to do, an no need to voice match it to the rest of the system. As a result, people are free to pick and choose among products or use what they already have.

Very observant, Skrrrg, and it summarizes our thinking exactly. We have what we think are alternatives to the usual boom-in-a-box, and I think we can provide them for Arx too, but unless we can offer a bona fide advantage, we're probably going to be reluctant to jump into the usual subwoofer pool.

I vote for dedicated surround speakers over a sub-woofer. I know some of the planar tweeters can operate in true dipole mode by removing the rear cover plate. I've been wondering if it is possible to build an open-baffle dipole that would properly voice match to the rest of the system. It's an interesting concept if nothing else that would set it apart from other solutions on the market.

Also very perceptive - you've basically pointed out just where we're headed for this model. More on this later.

Overall a great comment and thank you...

[ryansboston]

I want to ask a tough question: In the sea of ID subs (most of which do not completely agree with TAI's design philosophy on subs, I'll add) does the world really need more? In other words, while we could rather easily add another loud me-too bass system (or six), how would we differentiate these products except by name?

The ID brands IMO have gotten away from the bang for the buck. Arx needs a sub that would get the bassheads attention like the subwoofer forum at AVS or HTS. It seems like whenever a new subwoofer comes out like HSUs VTF 15H they just gotta have it. I think a high end Arx sub that competes with the VTF 15H and SVS PB 12+ would get peoples attention.

Although I'm not in the market for it, I am intrigued by subwoofer forums and read them entirely WAY too much. I agree with gtp- subs that offer a ton of value, bang for the buck will do well in differentiating themselves in the market flooded with a lot of good choices..


I think the 4 best target markets to go after are the following: (Please forgive my broad generalizations... this is just my opinion)

"Budget" $300 and under: generally somewhat decent performance to about 30Hz. Usually better for budget HTs.
Biggest Competitors- BIC, Lava 10 and 12, Energy S10, etc.

"High value, decent performance" ~$550: generally decent performance to about 20Hz, with louder SPL capabilities. Usually recommended for people who want a "Real" sub that has decent performance both for Music and HT
Biggest Competitors- HSU, Emotiva, Epik, Rythmik, Outlaw

"High value, high performance"~$1,000: generally very good performance to about 17Hz, with MUCH louder SPL capabilities. Usually for those real bassheads that want to feel the bass in movies and listen loud
Biggest Competitors- HSU (specifically VTF-15H), CHT, SVS

"HT Enthusiasts that don't want to DIY, but want best performance~$2,200+: PHENOMENAL performance to about 14Hz, with ridiculous SPL capabilities. For those that demand the best and sometimes have truly dedicated HTs and are enthusiasts, and demand the Hz performance in the teens..
Biggest Competitors- The kings: Seaton HP Submersive, JR Captivator Others as well, such as JL and Paradigm but not talked up as much as the SubM and Captivator..

Other thoughts:
-Elemental Designs also have a big following but I've been noticing they been getting recommended less and less due to various issues.. they would go in the $550 and 1k category
-CHT is known for their bang for the buck and great performance, but most agree their WAF/exterior appearance of the subs is usually very lacking (but has been slowly improving)
-HSU has a rock-solid rep and is recommended a lot
-The highest sales volumes likely occur in the ~$300 and ~$550 categories as most people can't justify or can't afford to spend more on a subwoofer.. but you would make a ton of sub enthusiasts dreams come true if you could really produce a ~$1,000 sub that could top the SubM or Cap...


What would REALLY get people's attention is if you could provide a TREMENDOUS Bang for the buck offering in which you have a sub at one of the first three cost levels that gives the performance of the subs in the next one.. This would likely be the hottest topic at all the audio forums and you would see orders flying in, and your reputation would grow leaps and bounds.. I know, easier said than done.. but I think it is possible.

I can't wait to read your announcement on the "real powerhouse subwoofer" that you mentioned... if it is able to do what I mentioned above you will have a real winner that will sell faster than you can produce them once reviews are out and people recognize the tremendous value offering..

[gtpsuper24]

-The highest sales volumes likely occur in the ~$300 and ~$550 categories as most people can't justify or can't afford to spend more on a subwoofer.. but you would make a ton of sub enthusiasts dreams come true if you could really produce a ~$1,000 sub that could top the SubM or Cap...

I totally agree. I don't know what Jon's plans are but a XBL/XBL2 sub in the $350-$700 range would get alot of attention. I don't know that its possible to produce a commercial sub in the $1K range that would beat or match the SubM or Cap or even the PB13Ultra. I think the true "sweet spot" for top performing would be the VTF15H, Epik Empire, SVS PB12+ range. Performance in that range with a slightly lower cost, keeping it basic just raw performance without the DSP eqs and variable Q tuning type addons, which add to the cost.

[Jon Lane]

I think the 4 best target markets to go after are the following:

• Budget $300 and under
• High value, decent performance ~$550
• High value, high performance ~$1,000
• HT Enthusiasts that don't want to DIY, but want best performance ~$2,200+

Accepting these categories (and abridging them for clarity) I'd respond like this:

• Budget $300 and under. Certainly the easiest to bring to market, and with our history with the Acculine ASub plus our abilities with Arx for the money, all but guaranteed to excel in-category. Such an Arx product also faces stiffest competition here, but if we could break into SplitGap for under, say, $400? Intriguing, to say the least.
• High value, decent performance ~$550. Probably of least interest initially, but could form the meat of a broader line of Arx subs in time. I say of the least initial interest because real sonic differentiation here is tough. SplitGap really helps, but I want to do something much different than the all the usual just-loud black boxes. But something to talk about and I solicit your opinions.
• High value, high performance ~$1,000. At least as intriguing as the budget class because here we can really start to do interesting things.
• Enthusiast class ~$2,200+. Owing to the lack of creativity in the current sub class, this is the most interesting of all, but more in a theoretical sense than in a practical and/or commercial sense.

TAI could - and should - do some tremendous things between these last two classes limited only by the costs of the technology and products themselves. Value is still very important, especially to Arx-branded product, but in a world of the same-old, I'm keeping an eye on this category.

-The highest sales volumes likely occur in the ~$300 and ~$550 categories as most people can't justify or can't afford to spend more on a subwoofer.. but you would make a ton of sub enthusiasts dreams come true if you could really produce a ~$1,000 sub that could top the SubM or Cap...

I'm seeing this all roughly the same. Really good stuff, ryan.

What would REALLY get people's attention is if you could provide a TREMENDOUS Bang for the buck offering in which you have a sub at one of the first three cost levels that gives the performance of the subs in the next one.. This would likely be the hottest topic at all the audio forums and you would see orders flying in, and your reputation would grow leaps and bounds.. I know, easier said than done.. but I think it is possible.

TAI will have some internal talks and see how well our $1000 concept translates down to half that. It's possible; the question is if performance would exceed the market's expectations as they stand. This lower-middle tier is saturated, and like I said, could offer less in the way of really outstanding product concepts.

I can't wait to read your announcement on the "real powerhouse subwoofer" that you mentioned... if it is able to do what I mentioned above you will have a real winner that will sell faster than you can produce them once reviews are out and people recognize the tremendous value offering..

Ok, next post; promise.

[Jon Lane]

I totally agree. I don't know what Jon's plans are but a XBL/XBL2 sub in the $350-$700 range would get alot of attention.

Good to hear because I think this is actually possible.

I don't know that its possible to produce a commercial sub in the $1K range that would beat or match the SubM or Cap or even the PB13Ultra. I think the true "sweet spot" for top performing would be the VTF15H, Epik Empire, SVS PB12+ range. Performance in that range with a slightly lower cost, keeping it basic just raw performance without the DSP eqs and variable Q tuning type addons, which add to the cost.

How does this strike you? Basic parameters are $1,000 ID-only, 1,000watts, triple 12" drivers, passive-radiatored, and under 24" square.

[Aus10]

Is there any talk on some rear speakers?

[gtpsuper24]

Is there any talk on some rear speakers?

Yep, A7 Compact effects/surround.

[gtpsuper24]

Wow that will be a monster of sub. I take it as it will be a single 12" with dual radiators? Or are we talking 3 powered drivers plus the radiators? Thats the kind of price and performance that will gain alot of attention.

[ryansboston]

Accepting these categories (and abridging them for clarity) I'd respond like this:

• Budget $300 and under. Certainly the easiest to bring to market, and with our history with the Acculine ASub plus our abilities with Arx for the money, all but guaranteed to excel in-category. Such an Arx product also faces stiffest competition here, but if we could break into SplitGap for under, say, $400? Intriguing, to say the least.
• High value, decent performance ~$550. Probably of least interest initially, but could form the meat of a broader line of Arx subs in time. I say of the least initial interest because real sonic differentiation here is tough. SplitGap really helps, but I want to do something much different than the all the usual just-loud black boxes. But something to talk about and I solicit your opinions.
• High value, high performance ~$1,000. At least as intriguing as the budget class because here we can really start to do interesting things.

Jon, although the budget class may be easiest to bring to market, I would strongly advise against going that route for your first sub offering. I think you guys will be much better off starting with either the "High value, decent performance" or High value, high performance" category offering, or something in between. This way, you will generate a lot of interest, and the market will already know your strong reputation and be much more receptive to a budget-minded sub introduction at a later point...
Otherwise you have a high risk of getting labeled as a budget/value sub maker and will have a steep curve to overcome when you decide to offer a higher performing sub.

[ryansboston]

Wow that will be a monster of sub. I take it as it will be a single 12" with dual radiators? Or are we talking 3 powered drivers plus the radiators? Thats the kind of price and performance that will gain alot of attention.

Agreed. That sub does look ridiculous on paper. I believe Jon did say triple 12" drivers.. but damn, I don't know if I am reading that graph right.. ability to hit 86db at 10Hz?!! Woah... what?